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Ep #012: Compensation and Freedom with Yulan Shen Thumbnail

Ep #012: Compensation and Freedom with Yulan Shen

Yulan Shen grew up in China in a Korean-Chinese family, and today she shares what it was like to be split between two cultures, as well as how the different generations of cultures have changing views of money and success. Walking us through her education and career journey, Yulan explains why she initially came to the United States and why she ended up staying.

Listen in to hear her explain how education freed her and how she is pursuing more freedom and purpose-filled meaning in life. You'll learn why education is so significant in her life (especially being a female), why she is so glad she spent the time and money to invest in herself, and what is most important when it comes to making sure you are being compensated fairly in the workplace.

Listen to the Full Episode:

What You'll Learn In Today's Episode:

  • What it was like growing up in a Korean-Chinese family in China.
  • Why Yulan decided to move to the United States.
  • Her immigration journey and the process she went through to stay in the U.S.
  • How her understanding of money from her culture and family contrasted with U.S. culture.
  • How the definition of success is changing.
  • What Yulan would do with unlimited money.
  • Her view on the difference in pay between immigrants and locals.
  • The stages of the typical compensation journey.
  • The road to financial freedom and flexibility.
  • Why education and investing in yourself are both so important.

Ideas Worth Sharing:

 "I see money as more of the means to bring me happiness." - Yulan Shen

"Education was my only way out to change my life—and I did. So to me, education is my passion." - Yulan Shen

"I don’t need sympathy or pity or special treatment. I need equal opportunity." - Yulan Shen

Resources In Today's Episode:

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Full Episode Transcript:

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Welcome to the Myra Wealth Podcast. Myra Wealth provides personal finance services to international and multi-cultural families in the United States. Each week our founder and CEO Sahil Vakil interviews highly successful international and multi-cultural individuals to uncover how they managed their money. And how they navigated some of the most important personal finance decisions of their lives.

Learn from these first- and second-generation immigrants just like you. And from Sahil himself on how to better manage your money and make smarter financial decisions. Here's your host Sahil Vakil. 

Sahil Vakil:          Welcome, everyone. Welcome to the 12th episode of the MYRA Wealth Podcast. Our guest in today's podcast is Yulan Shen. Yulan Shen is an influential leader in the compensation arena, and has extensive experience in both consulting and corporate environments. She has a proven track record of leading large cross functional teams in design, implementation and change management of highly complex and impactful projects in a fast changing environment. She's a trusted advisor to business leaders, executive committees, especially the compensation committees and board of directors of large institutions. 

                           Yulan is currently the Director of Executive Equity Compensation at Biogen. In the past, she was the Vice President of Pearl Meyer and Partners where she advised on compensation committees as well as the board of directors. And Yulan has an MBA from the University of Pennsylvania at the Wharton School. With that introduction, I hope you enjoy this episode of the MYRA Wealth Podcast with Yulan Shen. Welcome Yulan, and welcome to the MYRA Wealth Podcast.

Yulan Shen:        Thank you Sahil.

Sahil Vakil:          Yulan it's an absolute pleasure to have you. I know, we've known each other now for a few years. But just for the benefit of our listeners, can you please introduce yourself. Where are you from? Where's your family from? Any personal professional experiences that you might want to share? Please introduce yourself?

Yulan Shen:        Sure. My name is Yulan Shen and I currently work at a large biotech company as a director of executive compensation. I was born and raised in China and came to the States about 15 years ago. I have an undergrad degree in Human Resource Management. And I received my master's in Industrial Relations and Statistics in US. And also received my MBA from Wharton. As I said, I was raised in China, but I'm a Korean Chinese. My grandparents actually migrated from Korea to China. And then I came to the states a while ago. So I've been I guess my family and myself been moving around a little bit.

Sahil Vakil:          That's very interesting. So your grandparents were from Korea, they migrated to China, so your parents are from China. Were you also born in China? Or were you born in a different country?

Yulan Shen:        I was born in China, but it's a very Korean, let's say the Korean culture community. A lot of similar background people are in there. My first language was actually Korean, not Chinese. And I grew up in the Korean culture and heritage and including food. I grew up in China, I went to school in China, probably my Chinese are the dominant language.

Sahil Vakil:          Interesting. So you basically speak is it Mandarin or Cantonese as your primary but your cultural upbringing is Korean. Is that accurate?

Yulan Shen:        Yes. Mandarin.

Sahil Vakil:          Fantastic. I mean, this is very exciting. I don't think I have had any other guests on the podcast before that actually speaks a different language from their cultural language. Do you also speak then the Korean language?

Yulan Shen:        Yes. Very conversational. As I mentioned that, that's the first language I learned. That's my mother tongue. However, after I started going to school, pick up Chinese and it's very interesting psychology as a kid, you don't want to be different. I remember being intentionally focused on learning Chinese because I want to be same like my friends. My Korean I guess right now it's very conversational and basic, but it's the first language that I learnt. 

Sahil Vakil:          Excellent. And then what brought you to the United States? You said you moved here about 15 years ago. Was it for an education? Or did your family just relocate? What was the purpose of you moving to the United States?

Yulan Shen:        I came to the states for graduate school. It was a very, very simple and interesting motive. It's just myself in US. All my families are still in China or Korea. I wanted to get a graduate degree. I know in China getting a master takes three years and States it's two years, and I had a simple motivation as like, two versus three years. And it's a great learning opportunity. It's a whole new, different world. So I applied grad school in the States and that's how I came.

Sahil Vakil:          Fantastic. I'm assuming when you moved here then as a grad school student, you came as an F1 visa student. And as Chinese national, or just given that you were born in China, and you had Chinese passport, your conversion may have been from F1 to H-1B, and then you had to wait several years. Tell us a little bit about your immigration journey, what current status are you on? Are you a Green Card holder or a citizen? And just tell us about that journey.

Yulan Shen:        Oh, yes. If we have all day. Yeah, so that was a long process. As I mentioned, when I first came to the states my intention is to get my degree and return to China. But then as I approaching my graduation, so that was two-year graduate school, I started thinking it may be helpful to have some professional experience. Then I started to apply jobs in the States. So that's from F1 visa to, I think I used one year, we call OPT extension. So F1 visa, and then you have one additional year of OPT that's kind of in between status. 

Sahil Vakil:          Correct.

Yulan Shen:        Right. And then I found a job in ... So I went to school in Midwest, so Iowa, it's kind middle out of nowhere, but got my Asian ... I started working under my H-1B visa. But then, I think it's interesting that the more I do, the more I like the company and the culture in this country, as well. So I started using my H-1B visa, but I did not start applying Green Card until quite a few years later. Almost six years at the tail end of my H-1B visa, the maximum time allowed, which I believe is six years, because I wasn't sure 'cause I would still kept my mind open. Do I stay in the States? Do I return to China? Or do I go to a different country to experience different part of culture and life? But I started applying Green Card, I believe back in 2011. And I got my green card in 2015. That's four or five years of journey, quite long.

Sahil Vakil:          That's actually not too bad actually, for a Chinese national. If you went from H1 to a Green Card, which ... Was it sponsored through your employer like an EB-2, or was it a EB-1 which you applied for separately? Which route did you go down? 

Yulan Shen:        EB-2.

Sahil Vakil:          EB-2. Okay, so that's actually pretty fantastic. Because currently, the EB-2 has retrogressed and I think wait lines are like, way more than four or five years in the timeline you got it?

Yulan Shen:        Yeah, it's been tough.I don't think it's any easier now. 

Sahil Vakil:          Just going to moving back, I'm still fascinated by your entire upbringing, right? You, you know, you grew up in China, but you grew up in a Korean cultural environment. You learned Korean as your mother tongue, but then still learn Mandarin in school. Just going back to those childhood days. Do you have any stories as they relate to money and also help us understand the difference between, a Korean upbringing of money and a Chinese kind of cultural mentality towards money.

Yulan Shen:        That's a good question. I don't have much of memory, childhood memory related to money. I grew up in a very remote rural area part of China. And as an immigrant, Korean immigrants, my family didn't just didn't have much money. You know, whatever my family had in terms of money or resources, put to put the food on the table. And what I really appreciate my parents is they invested in my sister's education, that was pretty for looking at them, 'cause they want us to have a different life. Different have a chance, a living a not such a struggling life. So yeah, in terms of money, my memories, we didn't have much. In terms of how I see the difference between the Korean Chinese culture, I guess, both Asian culture, I don't see a huge, huge difference, especially given when you don't have much resources. It's mostly in the survival mode. So yeah.

Sahil Vakil:          And if you were to contrast that now. I mean, you've been in the United States for about 15 years, if you were to contrast, kind of the Chinese and Korean or the Asian culture more broadly, with the US kind of culture as it relates to money. Do you have any kind of perspective there?

Yulan Shen:        Yeah, I do. I think, nowaday, if I look at my generation, and my pet my parent's generation, including my in-laws, it's a very interesting that even though today, we have more resources, we have more monies, it just still, the view of money is different. To them it's still making money is kind of the definition of success. I completely understand because of the years of struggles, and to them, that's ... I think, somehow they still in that survival mode, having money give them a great sense of security. 

                           For myself, I'm fairly comfortable in terms of financial status situation. So to me, I see money is more of the means to bring me happiness, to bring me the joy or experience. So I see money differently now. I see it more as okay, that just means and then to the previous generation, or the culture in general, just they sees that money is more or less the definition of your security.

Sahil Vakil:          That's very interesting, because I think we've heard this consistently across all our previous podcast interviews as well. I mean, in general, there's a generational shift, where the definition of success is moving away from money and status to more this experiential definition of success. And I think I found one piece very interesting though, 'cause you did mention money is a means to happiness for you. I mean, can you elaborate on that a little bit? Do you equate money and happiness? Or do they go hand in hand for you? Or, just help us understand that a little bit.

Yulan Shen:        Oh, not at all, I don't equate them at all. What I meant is, I use money as a tool, right?

Sahil Vakil:          Got it.

Yulan Shen:        If I have money, that I can do things, right? Just simple as, okay, we can take a vacation, we can travel to different places, it's a means, it's a tool to bring me some actual happiness, but I don't equate them at all. In fact, I think you being happy, it's not that much correlated to money. What money brings is the sense of independence and freedom of do things. So that gives me kind of, that reduce any stress. Or then I have the freedom just to do things. But happiness, it along, it came from within, to me, that's how I feel. It came within how I see this world, how I see myself, and how I see my the people who I love, and then the things that I can accomplish, to me is a more intangible.

                           Money, if I have the money to support to bring me to make it better, that's great. But it's definitely not is a causal relationship, having money equal to happiness, that's not the case at all.

Sahil Vakil:          Absolutely. I think, I completely agree with that. That's also what we've been kind of getting in terms of, we're getting consensus there across the board in terms of this definition of success. And then also what money means to our generation of immigrants? Just kind of a fun question here. Since we're talking about this topic of money and what it means in your life, what if you had an unlimited amount of money? Would you live your life differently? 

Yulan Shen:        I thought that's a very fun topic. So my partner and I, we often joke about it, whenever there's a news in mega million, or the lottery up there, and that we always like to joke about it. How come we don't go by it? It's like, "Okay, what if we have these unlimited amount of money? What would you want to do?" It's a fun game to think about it. I don't think it will be fundamentally different how I live my life. Because as I mentioned before, I don't equate happiness or money equate to happiness. So today, how happy I am, that's not because of money I make. I make comfortable amount of money to support me to do different things. Yes, of course, that if I have a limited amount of money, then it's a bit different from the work front. I will absolutely still work, still choose to work. But maybe it's different type of work. 

                           Maybe I will travel the world, I can just stop everything and travel the world for a couple years, I can do that. But today, I have to plan a little bit because of work. I will find a cause, I will use them unlimited amount of money to make some ... 'Cause to me, I still think we as a human ... I consider myself lucky. Came from the under privileged background, with very, very limited resource. Education was my way out. Education was my only way out to change my life and I did. So to me, education is my passion and especially for girls, in some parts of the world, they just don't have the opportunity or privilege to receive education. Even from my old culture, girls are undervalued than boys, when I grew up.

                           So, it's even questionable whether the family think it's worth it to invest education in girls, because they will see you very often belong to someone else family. It's a very, very different view of the culture that's from my grandparents generation, even older generation. 

Sahil Vakil:          Do you think the view still exists today as well, like in the United States, even for a second generation immigrants? Is that more of a view for individuals outside of the United States?

Yulan Shen:        That's a good question. I'm not sure. I think in pockets of places it still exist in microculture. I don't see it much in today in people around me. But I believe something like that still exists.

Sahil Vakil:          I think let's kind of shift gears here. I think you have a very interesting, professional background, and I'm sure a lot of folks are going to be interested in this conversation now. So Yulan you are a compensation specialist. We keep hearing in the industry about the gender gap, how men get paid more than women and how there's inequality in that realm. But have you ever as a compensation specialist seen a disparity in immigrant versus US citizen pay scales? Do you feel like there is not a gender gap, but an immigration status gap that exists?

Yulan Shen:        I haven't seen data, and I haven't done any analysis in this area. I was suspecting again, in some pockets in some companies, or something cases that exist. If I have to think from my personal experience. I haven't found that, or I haven't felt that. So I guess I'm fairly lucky in that sense. Because to me my personal view is that regardless, I want equal opportunity. I don't people either from gender perspective, or from immigrant status perspective or any other perspective. I don't need sympathy, or pity or like a special treatment. I want equal opportunity. If I'm perform at the level, or I'm delivering the same value, I want that equal opportunity. So fairness, I think that's to me is the key. Since I haven't had any data, strong data, or analysis done, I couldn't really comment on exactly what is existing today. But I can just share with my personal experience.

Sahil Vakil:          No, that's helpful. I think the other question that a lot of our listeners might be interested in is again, because you're a compensation specialist, help us understand kind of this journey. Let's take a very not like standard case of a first generation immigrant. Someone like yourself, like myself, who moved to this country, maybe 10-15 years ago. Help us understand that entire compensation journey from the time they start all the way to how much do they earn at different stages. Again, we don't need exact numbers, but like, ballpark estimates would be helpful. As in like starting out from a master's program, they might start at 80,000 in a few years they go up. 

                           Help us understand kind of those trajectories, and also help us equate, do you see immigrants, first generation immigrants typically will end up having higher compensations over the long run versus US citizens, or do you see a trend the other way around?

Yulan Shen:        Yeah, like I said, I don't have any hard data or analysis, it's a really ... I would imagine, it's very case by case. And in a time, so also the different ... So even first generation immigrant today, versus, say, 10, 20 years ago might be different. A lot of my friends or including myself came here for education for advanced degree. And then we landed in white collar jobs. That's a very different from the prior generation, or prior generation of immigrants who came here. They maybe came here for blue collar job, or they started making minimum wage. So it's a very different dynamic, and really, depending on what you do, what industry you're in. 

                           So I can't really comment on the overall trend. But I do think for people who ... If I use myself as a case. People who typically came to the States, willing to migrate from change, completely change go to a place, they never been to, take the risk of coming to a whole new world. People typically have determination, commitment, and work really hard. So with those qualities, I won't be surprised that people making great upward trajectory of the income, making more money over long term. I would not be surprised at all. My own case, I started when I first graduate from, got my master's degree, I was making 40, low 40. That's in Midwest. And then my compensation, I have to say, again, I've been fairly lucky in terms of the growth from that point. And I can say, I'm making almost tenfold straight.

                           I consider well I'm one of the lucky ones, but I do believe people with those really, core values and qualities, I won't be surprised, they have great potential of their income.

Sahil Vakil:          Got it. No thank you for sharing that. Very interesting. So Yulan, again, we're a topic of immigration and personal finances more focused on personal finances here today. Tell us what are some of the personal finance topics that you are curious about today?

Yulan Shen:        How to invest. How to retire early. Those are where my curiosity resides today.

Sahil Vakil:          That's very interesting, because there is this entire movement that's going on that's called a fire F-I-R-E, which is finance independence, retire early. And that's exactly what you said is to gain financial independence, you need to invest your money and make your money work hard for you. And then, eventually, how do you retire early?

Yulan Shen:        Yes, yes. Again, when I say retire early, so maybe my definition of retirement, it's slightly different. I don't mean that you have to completely out of work force. As I said, I still want to do things, I still want to make myself useful to the society. But I want to ultimately have the freedom and flexibility to do the things that I want to do, without consideration of okay, how much money they're going to pay me. So you don't have to worry about that. To me, that's being the financial freedom or independence, that's the goal.

Sahil Vakil:          Actually, why don't you elaborate on that kind of look forward dream. Because in a previous question, when we asked you, what would you do, if you had an unlimited amount of money, you said, "Fundamentally, no change, I would still live my life the way ... " Which I'm assuming included, having this kind of corporate job. But now it sounds like, corporate job is a means to an end and if you did have the financial independence, then maybe you would pursue your passion or your dreams. Help us understand, what are your passions and your dreams in that sense, if you do gain that financial independence and kind of technically retire early.

Yulan Shen:        Yeah, so when I said earlier, my life fundamentally wouldn't change. What I meant is how I live my life. So I will still ... I am not a very material driven person. It's not like, "Okay, I'm going to buy 10 yachts and build a mansion or not working at all." To me, those are changed. But what I meant is no changes, the way I live my life, where I see my happiness come from, it won't be from the money. So I will still really invest in my relationship with people, I really will continue to work. It may not be a corporate job. I can free to do other things. The things that I ... The day when I leave this world, I can look back, say, "Hey, I did some good, I was useful to the society."

                           And I mentioned earlier, I may find a cause, besides travel the world to see the world. To me, that's very important. I want to see the world I want to experience different culture, different way of life and just open my eyes. That's one side. The other thing is, what I want to do is, if I have unlimited resource, as I mentioned, I might find a cause, I might help people help, especially, help people receive education, especially in underprivileged area, or in some cultures for certain gender. Really is for girls that who cannot typically get education. So I think those are the things and there are a lot of things that I'll be happy to do, but may not be a corporate job.

Sahil Vakil:          Got it. No, thank you for sharing, I think that makes a lot of sense. 

Yulan Shen:        But again, I'm not saying bring down to corporate job. I think corporate job, it depends, 'cause today, I find some meaning in the things I do, because I work for a biotech company. Bring the treatment for rare disease. And make a difference in patient's life. That to me is a making a difference too. And that gives me a sense of accomplishment or a sense of just fulfillment. I'm not saying I wouldn't do a corporate job I can be then what I mean is then is, I can be more selective of what I want to do, either a corporate job or nonprofit, or doing some initiative, just more freedom to do so.

Sahil Vakil:          No that's fantastic. I hope and I wish that you get all the money in this world so you can pursue, your causes and make the world a better place.

Yulan Shen:        Thank you.

Sahil Vakil:          Let's move now to the kind of the rapid fire section of this podcast. I'm going to ask you five questions. And if you have a small anecdote or a story around some of these please do elaborate and share with our audience. Are you ready?

Yulan Shen:        Yes.

Sahil Vakil:          Okay, so what has been your best financial decision to date?

Yulan Shen:        I would say the best financial decision is invest in myself. Meaning invest in my education, in my growth and learning. For example, as a first generation immigration, I didn't came with money. And I went to grad school here in the States. Some of my friends, under the pressure of having a little more financial security, they will spend their extra time to waitressing, nothing wrong with it, but brings in some little extra cash. But I made a decision that instead of doing that, I want to invest my money. Which I could the opportunity is making some extra cash. It's kind of a little bit counterintuitive, it's kind of opposite. I did not make those extra money, but I invest my time in my learning and growth, in especially getting over the hurdle of languages, which was really, really difficult coming from China to switch to a different language system. I think those paid off. Even though it's not a direct financial decision, but to me, that was the best decision I made.

Sahil Vakil:          I think what you're saying is you took the longer term view, you invested your time, in educating yourself and doing well in school and kind of exploring your long term potential and opportunities versus, others may unfortunately, have been a little more short sighted where they saw the opportunity to earn that extra few dollars by waitressing or other part-time jobs and didn't focus as much on their education, which in the long run may not kind of pan out for them. I think that's a good tip, especially for international students especially here in the United States. A lot of times, they focus on earning that extra dollar, because when they come from a foreign country, the conversion rates are significantly higher. And all of a sudden, the purchasing power parity just kicks in. They suddenly feel like, "Oh, my God, I'm earning so much money." But in reality, that's a very short term view of it because when you do focus in your education and go into corporate America, you can actually earn a lot more in the long run.

Yulan Shen:        Absolutely agree.

Sahil Vakil:          Then you need to take over this rapid fire section. But moving to the next question, what has been your worst financial decision?

Yulan Shen:        I think my worst financial decision would be being too conservative, especially earlier years. If I look back in 2008, in 2009, I had some extra cash from work, because I'm not spending much I'm spending way below my means. So I had some extra cash. I could have invested in either stock market or housing market, but I think that was just didn't grow that kind of risk appetite and didn't do anything. I would have achieved the financial freedom more if I had done that. Yeah.

Sahil Vakil:          That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, again, I think you're talking about a very interesting financial concept, which is time value of money, as well as compounding. Where if you had taken a little bit of risk, when you were in your 20s or younger, and your time horizon to retirement is like 30, 40 years, investing in the markets and kind of sustaining some of those ups and downs, also ensure that your money did grow substantially over the years. I mean, we always recommend this to our clients. There's this rule of thumb called the 125 minus your age. Pretty much how that works is, if you are 25-years old, 125 minus your age, which is 25, that's 100. Put 100% in equity, let it run.

                           I'm not saying buy single stocks and go crazy with Bitcoin and stuff, but have a diversified portfolio of equities, and keep it at 100% invested and let it grow, 'cause you have a long time horizon. If however, you are 75, then 125 minus 75 is 50 then have 50% in fixed income on debt and the other 50% in equity. That's typically kind of the rule of thumb that we have seen in the industry as well.

Yulan Shen:        That makes sense. I wish I had known this rule when I was in my 20s. 

Sahil Vakil:          Got it. There's also another interesting one, which since we're talking about rules, it's called the rule of 72. And that rule pretty much says that say that the market is returning. So the S&P 500, as an example, over the past, 10, 20 years has been returning about 9%, year over year. The rule of 72 says, 72 divided by nine is eight years, your money will double every eight years if the markets grew at 9%, assuming you had invested in those markets. So that's just a quick back of the envelope calculation. If you ever want to know, how will I double my money, you just do the 72 divided by the expected rate of return, and that'll give you the number of years in which your money will double.

Yulan Shen:        That's great rule.

Sahil Vakil:          Okay, again, didn't mean to hog up this rapid fire section. But moving to the third question. What has been your happiest moment as it relates to money?

Yulan Shen:        That's a good question. But I don't really have any happiest moment associated with money. As I said, it's money is only the means or tools to offer extra things. But my happiest moments is always related to people, or the things that I have accomplished. If I can think of money will offer me a great vacation, but even it just only buys you the vacation, the location, the accommodation. But whether you're happy or not it depends on yourself, your partner, the people who you're with. So yeah, I can't really think of a moment that a happiest moment that is related to money.

Sahil Vakil:          Right. And I promise this is not a MasterCard plugin, but this reminds me of the MasterCard kind of tagline, right? Hotel $600, flights to your vacation $1500, spending time with your family? Priceless.

Yulan Shen:        Exactly. That's a perfect one. That's a perfect one.

Sahil Vakil:          Got it. Moving to the fourth question here, what has been your unhappiest moment as it relates to money? Again, I know you don't equate money and happiness. But has there been a situation where someone's actions or reactions created unhappiness for you, because they were related to money?

Yulan Shen:        I wouldn't say unhappiness, but definitely experienced stress related to money. I remember when I first graduated from my master's, before I graduated, I already got a job offer from a large financial institution for a good job, good, good money. But because of my H-1B status, the company decided to rescind the offer, because they didn't want to go through their trouble sponsoring the H-1B visa. So all of a sudden, that happened right when I was graduating. All of a sudden, I graduated with no job offer. And the pressure of my status, the visa status, well, I need a company to sponsor my H1-B, and also very little money in the bank account. As you know, I did not ... Came from a lot of money. So I already use some of the resource of my family, had very limited resource than my family had, so I did not feel right to ask for money.

                           So I was trying to figure out a way, looking for a job at the time, and then also figure out like I really minimize my spending. And luckily, I find another job within three months, that I really want is even a better job. But that three month, I was under lot of pressure, financial pressure of not knowing, the early days. So that's one memory I had. But you always learn from that. You look back, I always appreciate and grateful of what I have today 'cause I know it could have been bad or worse. So that to me, that's why, as I mentioned, having that financial independence and freedom, is very important.

Sahil Vakil:          Now, I think, a lot of our first and second generation immigrants, maybe not second, but first generation immigrants definitely will resonate with this kind of thought, because there is so much uncertainty between the time you graduate from a program, and then from the time you get a job, and there's this kind of conversion of visa status, there is uncertainty of, will I have a status in the country? Will I have a job? And I think pretty much all of us have lived through that. Thank you for sharing this. It's definitely a stressful kind of time during that transition period. 

Yulan Shen:        Yep. Yep. 

Sahil Vakil:          Moving to the fifth question. I think this one is going to be interesting, because I just want to understand, do you follow any rules with your money? I know, we spoke about a couple of rules. But, clearly based on our previous conversations, the number one rule is, invest in yourself, invest in education, and you truly believe in that. But outside of that, are there any other rules you follow with your money?

Yulan Shen:        Not specifically, or spoken rules, I don't have those, but I guess in my practice or how I live my life, maybe aspect of the rule which is spend below your means. So don't overspend. So leave yourself some cushion for investment, especially think long term, long term investment. Because that's the way I see money, I see money just purely just means, and I'm not overly managing, the detail the ins and outs of how I spend every penny because I know I don't spend, I spend below my means. So I don't even need to manage it much, 'cause I just know that I have a huge cushion. If one day, if I decided to buy something, buy an expensive handbag, I'm just making this up. It wouldn't make a dent because I know most of the time, yeah, I'm very conservative in terms of spending. Not that I'm trying to, it just the way it is. So because of that, that I don't have any whole lot of rules related to money, 'cause I don't need to.

Sahil Vakil:          Got it. That makes sense. It seems like invest in yourself is number one, spend below your means and then think long term versus short term. I think those are really some really good tips there. I think we're coming to a close on this podcast, and I just want to kind of close, on this note and ask you, personally, how do you hope to be remembered someday? I know, you mentioned in the past wanting to work on the education front and financial literacy for girls. But is there a specific kind of view or vision you have in your mind in terms of your legacy in that sense?

Yulan Shen:        No, I'm fairly ... I like being low profile. I don't need to be remembered. I don't desire fame or anything like that. All I want to be remembered is I'm a loving and caring person for the people who I love and love me. And I also want to be remembered as someone who did some good to the society. That's all. And I don't want to be remembered beyond that. So that's just my personal feel.

Sahil Vakil:          Thank you for sharing Yulan. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the MYRA Wealth Podcast here. I'm sure our listeners will truly enjoy your stories, and we look forward to reconnecting soon. 

Yulan Shen:        Thank you very much Sahil for this great opportunity.

Thanks for listening to the Myra Wealth Podcast. Now it's your turn to better manage your money and make smarter financial decisions. Just remember, you're not in this alone. Myra Wealth is here to help. Visit us at MyraWealth.com to learn more. That's M-y-r-a-Wealth.com and get started today.